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luckygirl- Thanks for the "response".

BTW, feathers are not ruffled. No need to get them ruffled when you're right!

Have a splendid day.

FASHIONPLATE: Thanks, but no thanks to you. Now lay your feathers back down.

luckygirl - You are correct. Completely different situations.

In one situation (waterbording) someone (generally a person suspected of committing horrific acts of terrorism) ends up a little bit wet.

I the other situation (abortion) someone (an innocent, helpless human being) ends up DEAD.

Thanks for your observation!

These two should not even be compared. Totally different situations. You people commenting shouldn't get your feathers ruffled over it. Ridiculous.

JP its hard to figure which is greater your arrogance as you think you know what I am thinking or your ignorance of what I think. To anyone that is truly prolife the killing of the abortionist Tiller is wrong and no I will not take responsiblity for his death. A military recruiter was killed by a terrorist this week will you take any responsibility for that due to the left wing anti war, anti America, anti military rantings?

By the way have you condemed the leaders of your party for not doing their job yet. If all that nonsense you spew about the war is true they need to investigate and prosecute Bush, Powell, Rumsfeld and others. Of course winning in the court of public opinion is a lot easier than a court of law where you need real evidence.

As for sleeping, I sleep fine and nothing your little mind can fabricate will change that.

J.P. I do agree with you that we are in a war under false pretenses. However capital punishment is biblical and it is different from murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. Therefore, in the issue of taking life we must determine whether or not it is lawful or not. If a murderer is sentenced to death in a lawful manner via the law of the land, then it is not murder. However, if a person were to rob someone else and kill him in the process, that is not a lawful taking of life and is murder. God never murders because before God, all people are guilty before the holy law that he is given. Finally, it is not a a self-contradiction for a person to condemn murder but believe in the death penalty. But if you are saying our capital punishment is flawed I agree with you on that. But it is the law of the land at this time. For it to work as it should, it needs to be 100% assured of guilt, swift and distributed fairly.

To gman:
Asking Mr.Downey if he supports or agrees with what was done to this Doctor was a fair question. Mr. Downey apparently also supports torture. There are definitely people who consider themselves Christians who in fact DO support the murder of this man, and have publicly voiced this opinion since this murder.
I personally oppose late-term abortions, and believe that abortion as a 'casual' birth control method is wrong. But, I would also oppose the government forcing a woman who was a victim of rape/incest, or who's life was endangered to carry the baby. So on that issue(s), I am pro-choice.
As a Christian, I am pro-life. But I consider myself more pro-life than most Conservatives because I have serious problems with the flawed concept of Capital Punishment. I also have serious problems with fighting wars based on 'created evidence' as the 'Cheney/Bush' Administration has done in Iraq. We have lost 4,300+ American lives,as well as 100's of 1,000's of Iraqi lives(mostly innocent lives). So....who's pro-life here?
Fanaticism, especially religious fanaticism, is a deadly deadly tool!

J.P. I do not think any true Christian would even think that another true Christian would agree with your comparison. Why on earth would you even ask Mr. Downey such a far fetched question? Christianity unlike many other religions is based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as our Savior. Therefore, it is an individual choice and we cannot do anything to ensure someone else's salvation other than pray that they receive Jesus Christ as their Savior. I think you can tell a true Christian by the fruit of their spirit and by their good example. We Christians cannot do anything about stopping these "nutjobs" as you put it, who go out and do things in the name of Jesus Christ. I am sure you agree that this has to make Jesus very sad and upset with the radicals for doing such an atrocity under the guise of His name. I don't think you meant that question to sound as mean spirited as it reads out to be on here.

Soooo....today we had an 'Abortion Doctor' shot dead in Kansas...IN HIS CHURCH. Is this the answer Mr. Downey? Do you agree with this? NOW make a statement!!
This was actually the 2nd time he had been shot by a radical nutjob. Do you now 'try' to justify this biblically with 'an eye for an eye'?
As you know I am also pro-life, but YOUR radical ridiculous right-wing nutcases are JUST as guilty as this Doctor was. Murder is Murder.
See what your far-right fanaticism causes? I hope you sleep well.

Bill Maher is that you? Why do you go by the name PoliSci? I heard you use that same line on tv a few weeks back....come up with something original.

Or if PoliSci is not Maher...no need to repeat what the far left media says....especially word for word....we have already heard all of that.

That's why it's called faith, and as with all theories the burden of proof is upon the believer. The 23% identifying as Republican comes from a well known, and accepted, nonpartisan thinktank called Pew Research Center, not the "liberal media". You realize there are a lot more voters in this country than just in the Bible Belt, and the South right? I guess if you didn't, you should now.

PoliSci; Take your own advice!
"If you're going to discount someone atleast have a valid argument or point of view, otherwise go back to the peanut section."

Prove to me there is no God before you go around demanding proof there is one! Religious history proves nothing. The first one written down is not necessarily the first one created/believed. You forget that archeology involves a pound of guess work and theory on top of an ounce of physical evidence. You still have a lot to learn!

It's so funny how the left believes that the Right is shrinking! The truth is the Right has gained exponentially in BHO's first 100 days and it continues to grow (mainly with people sorry they voted BHO). But the media said it was shrinking so it must be true... *eyes rolling* And when they say the Earth is flat again, I'm sure you'll believe that and have all the skewed, biased history you need to back that up too!

IIRC, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, he meets a "member of the flood family," also known as Noah's family, and the person is commonly believed to be Ham.

Epic of Gilgamesh would therefore take place after the flood mentioned in the bible.

"Zietgiest" is not truth, it is merely cleverly written, and interesting propaganda.

If the writers of that film had actually done some research, they would have been able to point to the fact that the those 'ancient religions with flood stories' all seem to happen at around the same time.

Zietgiest proves/disproves nothing.

PoliSci...diversify your sources? Laughing......you could be Keith Olberman or the bloggers at any of the far left sites.....you repeat everything they say.

But go ahead...you may be fooling some people.

Why do some bloggers argue bout religion & politics?/

Cannot seem to make a comment on any subject w/o the big R & P words.

Stuck in a rut.

Just love to hear one opinion that did

not include God & Politics.

Yep I believe in God. Just am not

obsessed to the pt that I cannot dicuss

any subject w/o getting into a huge

argument always coming back to the same-o same-o

Two words come to mind: (not for all

bloggers but a chosen few.

RIGHTIOUS & POMPOUS

sorry if I offended anyone....but if the shoe fits> try it on.<

Whatever makes you sleep better at night. The criteria to be an organized religion is that you have a written dogma, in this case, the "Vedas". It is commonly accepted by historians that Hinduism, with Sanskrit, is the undeniable first organized religion. Only thing he's shooting holes in is his foot. I like it how all those in the minority always say it's because of the liberal media. I read books, have done research, get magazines like U.S. News and World Report, Newsweek, Time, and read newspapers like the WSJ, the DJ, but I try to diversify my sources. You choose what you wish to read or believe, but to use the "liberal media" is like someone claiming "the man" is keeping you down. If you're going to discount someone atleast have a valid argument or point of view, otherwise go back to the peanut section.

What's with the 'advanced' comment Thunderbird? I was under the impression from PoliSci that 'advanced' and 'religion' were mutually exclusive. To hear some of those on this blog, all religions are the exact opposite of 'advanced'.

Thunderbird when you say Hinduism is much more advanced than any Judeo/Christian doctrine, in what sense do you mean? If you are talking about more complicated, I would agree, because in Christianity all you have to do is take Jesus Christ as your savior and have a personal relationship with Him and the rest is done for you. If you mean the person has to be more advanced because there is not alot of difference between him and the god or gods of Hinduism, then I also agree with you. But if you mean Hinduism is more advanced in its doctrine such as being closer to the truth, I would say which doctrine or doctrines of Hinduism, as it is made up of many variations with many different views on god, salvation, reincarnation and such. No, the Word of God is the only doctrine of truth.

RUKidding me - first, if i was truly hurt and can't work, then yes, I would take dissability... but if I hurt my back such as the individual I spoke of did, he could very easily get a desk job... he could work, he was moving large things around in his yard when I showed up...

It's about being responsible and honest with oneself...

I can also say when I got a hernia moving furnature, I quit the job and took 8 weeks off unpaid before starting another job. NO disability, no nothing. Didn't even do unemployment...

Again, when you are responsible and take care of yourself, you don't begin to need to rely on Big G to cover your lazy butt when you dont' feel like working.

Again, it's the disgusting lazy people that abuse the system....

BassSlayer You are wrong. Not only is the religious writing of the Hindus {Sanskrit}much older that the Torah it is much more advanced than any Judeo-Christian doctrine. Kind of makes you wonder

Bass slayer...if you wanted to ...and you did...you can shoot a hole into almost everything PoliSci posts about. He tries to come across as all knowing, but when he speaks of things that I do know about....I realize that most of his comments are out of context or just out and out misrepresentations.

He gets a lot of his stuff from the far left blogs and from the talking points of very liberal media outlets.

At first I thought he was informed just misguided....now I have learned he is misinformed or purposefully not telling the truth.

So TOTB, let me get this straight. If you hurt yourself and are unable to work, you don't want to paid disability? Who do you think you are kidding? You would be the first in line saying help me big G, help me! You know, I'm tired of the bull too...your bull! Later dude.

PoliSci - you are wrong. Hinduism is not older than the Jewish Religion by about 4 centuries. Most research fails to build a concensus about the exact dates various religions were formed due to the extreme ages concerned and lack of verifiable documents. All of the others you list fail in the criteria of being widely, if at all, practiced and accepted.

PoliSci - some, like yoursself call me "bitter".. others agree with me...

For example.. take the 29 year old customer I had when I worked rent to own.. lived in a trailor, was outside doing physical labor when I showed up with his 60" big screen on a weekday.. said it must be nice to have the day off.. he says "I'm on dissability.. can't work, hurt back.. get 2900 a month to stay at home"....

He shows me where to put his tv and goes back to working.. yes.. the activity he was doing requred back movement..



So - my point is.. he's 29, and could move just fine.. yet some doctor believed he didn't need to work and the govt could pay his bills for the rest of his lazy life..

Guess who pays for that... THE WORKING PEOPLE!!!

ME, YOU, (Unless of course you are also a system user)...

It's bull crap and I don't want to pay for others to get to be lazy and get a free ride.. don't mind helping someone in need.. just no more freeloaders

TOTB, yup, all based around a Sun deity. You can also ask a Muslim. But I'm sure you'll get mixed answers depending on which ones you ask. As for negativity, I'd say you're well known here for all of yours. Mine just happens to be on one subject that gets thrown up by others, and I offer a counter-point to.

Hinduism is the oldest recorded and organized religion. Because to be considered as such the criteria is that you have a written language, and Sanskrit is the oldest written language. Good guess though. The Egyptians, Chinese, Mesopotamians, and Sumarians came before the Jews, and I think there's a couple more. Not bad though, you were only wrong by about 6 or so.

It was the Sumerians, the Greeks, and the Egyptians that first noticed the movements and patterns of the stars. Associating and revering those, along with the Sun and the Moon, with people, and deities. It is because of these practices you see the beginning of religion. There are some really good Ancient History books out there with stuff like the Epic of Gilgamesh, the life or Sargon of Akkad, all of which are B.C. and give you an accounting of many of the stories, men, and events in the Bible. It's believed by many, likely a majority, of ancient historians, archeologists, scientists, and scholars that many of those stories were borrowed from these sources. Just sayin'...

This is so much fun... PoliSci is a wacko.. figured that one out.. and sorry partner... not on us Christians for the burden of proof.. and while we are at it.. isn't the Jewish God, the Christian God, and the Islamic God (Allah) all the same entity?

Funny how most get along, just the wack job extremist groups that actually stir up hate and discontent that we all like to label as "generalist"....


Last and not least.. I want Obama's policies to fail.. because they do more harm then good..

You give a lazy fool a break and a paycheck, they will depend upon those still working for the rest of his poor miserable life. No more welfare. No more handouts.

PoliSci - you are certainly fixated on ancient Egyptian Polithieism for some reason. I would like to see were you come to the conclusion that the 10 Commandments were originally the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Also, you would do well to remember that the oldest religion still in wide practice today is the Jewish faith. It's age is approximately 5500 years old. Where religion is concerned, 'anceintness' and acceptability go hand in hand. This way, it is near impossible for a small group to invent a new religion and be taken seriously. The newest religion is scientology.

I am not the one that concluded that this is a religious war. That was RUkiddingme?/J.P. and probably most islamists although I tend to agree that it is a war of civilizations/religion.

RUkiddingme? - I hate the enemies of our country, both foriegn and domestic, I practice 'catch and release' 95% of the time, and I don't believe it was VP Cheney who was doing the undermining of GWB's administration. That would have been Dems and thier lap dogs in the media who prolonged the war and undermined the president.

cont: on last blog was correction

needed. "lose, lose situation"

thank ca ya!

JP - Just thought I would help you find the answers you could not find in the Bible.

Capital Punishment - Genesis 9:6 (New International Version) "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

Pro-War - Deuteronomy 20:16 17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you.

Torture - Matthew 18:34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

There are many more scriptures for each of these acts, and there are some against these acts, but it is all in the "Christian Bible".

Hope this helps you in your further research, and God Bless.

Sorry BassSlayer! I'm just one guy expressing my opinion. Good try though! When your beliefs are being destroyed by the entire country turning it's back on you, diversion and hate filled tirades are an option I guess. I think you should re-enlist in the Marines so you can get your frustrations out in a righteous way. If you can't do that, go kill a bass or something. Time to ease up or you will go postal one day. :) PS. I never hated GWB. Just his policies and the way he let Cheney ruin his presidency and put our country on a downhill spiral.

Religion has nothing to do with the policies of our government. It may have shaped the morals of an individual within, but is not the standards upon which we base our decisions. Spewing the 10 Commandments, or as it was previously known the Egyptian Book of the Dead, is an automatic disqualification of credibility in any political argument. At that point you lose any and all credibility. As for the burden of proof, it's up to those that 'believe' in something to prove it, otherwise it's just a theory. There's no evidence, that's why it's called faith. I'm with Slayer though, it's a religious war as Bush said when he implied God told him to invade Iraq, if you want to fight a Crusade ruck up and hump it to the Middle East. Then when you obliterate each other the rest of us rational and reasoning people, who don't hear the schizophrenic voices in our head, can advance the human race. Like I said before in another thread, if you wish to bring religion into a political discussion then I reserve the right to ridicule. TOTB, they can use Bible pages to roll that 'doobie' with, they work.

So...where does that leave us that aren't Christians, are anti-abortion, and believe that torturing one person to save possibly thousands or even millions is a necessary evil?

I've mentioned this several times, not all discussions relate to a persons religion, but it seems that it is constantly brought to the table.

Try discussion without religion, you will find that abortion does nothing more than kill someone who didn't do anything wrong, killing a murderer is better than shacking them up for life and giving them free education/cable, and torturing certain individuals CAN be a benefit to continued society.

After reading all the blogs, why DID

ORGINAL ARTICLE DESERVE SPACE TO BE

WRITTEN sich/e/a/tion <

good luck & good nite lol

RU-how would Poli know if Jesus were blogging?Seeing as they doesn't believe in God,or a higher being,it's impossible to see what's in front of them.I'm sick of being bashed b/c I believe in God.I don't hate anyone.Never once have I said I hate a single person.Also-I am very open to ALL sides of a debate/discussion.I'm not the one who says "there is no God".Instead I stand here open armed and clear headed waiting for someone to PROVE to me something different than I believe.I'm NOT perfect,I never will be,never claim to be.Christains are taught to spread the word,the love,ect.I'm being chastised for sharing my thoughts.I don't ever see anyone else standing up for their belief in God.I only see 2 athestist having a good laugh @ me b/c I stand firm in my beliefs.IF you or anyone can prove to me I'm wrong-I'm willing to listen and learn.In the mean time-I say Good day and God Bless you all.Thank you for your time.
I still feel good about myself-I don't like to attack anyone.This blog was supposed to open not an attack forum.I will not attack-only defend.If you sneeze in public,hope I don't offend you when I say GOD BLESS

Furthermore, I too want BHO's POLICIES to fail just like the treasonous dems and libs wanted GWB to fail and regularly called him every name in the book. They, and thier media lackies, have perpetuated myths as fact for purely political reasons. BHO has done far more to damage this country than anyone in the Bush Administration.

I think RUkiddingme? and J.P. are one in the same. Just like a run-of-the-mill lefty. It is about time he/she recognized that the war we are invloved in is religious in nature. And since it is a religious war, it is a war that must be won to preserve our western culture and save all of our necks. Literally.

Semper Fi

For RUkiddingme?: ditto!!

I don't know, maybe if we did get them all to sit around a water pipe and mellow out for a day or day they might get something accomplished!!

JP....you are right..many on the right want Obama to fail. You are kidding yourself if you do not think the other side did not want W. to fail. Members of Congress who are supposed to be looking out for us....hated W and Cheney and wanted them to fail as did most of the media.

Neither side really cares.. need the other side to fail so they can have the power...you are naive if you think otherwise.

I want our country to thrive because that means people are thriving...but I hope that Obama is not able to achieve all of his goals because I think they are not good and I disagree with much of his social agenda on moral grounds. My opinion...which I have the right to.

At the same time.....I could not really care less if he is a Democrat, Republican, or a Whig. It is all about what is best for my country and the people for me.

Unfortunately, I get the feeling you and a few others are much more loyal to your "party" than the country...left is more guilty of this than the right.

With a sad heart, I rest my case.

RUKidding me - ummmm the islamic extremists believe that if they die in the process of killing an American they go to heaven with a bunch of virgins...

Do you really think you are going to create peace with them?


Both Israel and Palestine claim that God himself gave them the same piece of land... do you really think you are going to "negotiate" a peace between them?

The left thinks if we all sit down, smoke a dubbie, and just try to get along, that we can bring world peace... you need to wake up!!!

I am conservative.. do I want war? No. Would I like to see peace so my son can grow up in a nice happy world... sure... is it going to happen? No.... it's not...

10 Commandments - thou shall not kill (abortion)... there isn't one that says "thou shall not torture", there isn't one that says "thou shall not hurt someone"... there isn't one that says "thou can defend yourself, but you can't hurt someone to do it.."

If waterboarding keeps our women and children safe in their beds at night... give me a hose and show me who's next

RUkiddingme - First off, I don't hate anyone. Since you know the Bible so well, you know that hate is the same as murder. (1 John 3:15)

Second - I wont judge you, so please don't judge me (us) that disagree with you. That is also in the Bible.

Third - Finally, you said that the kind of abortion that Ross explained is hardly ever used. Of the 697K abortions performed here in the US in 1994, 98%, or over 684K were preformed using the Suction Curettage Abortion method. This type of abortion still ripes the baby apart in many cases.

I wonder how many tortures America participated in in 1994? I bet is wasn't close to 697K.......

To RUkiddingme?
It is very frustrating and sad for this country. And it's blatant and unapologetic Hypocrisy on their part. But, they are now cannabalizing each other.
The far-right branded anyone who opposed the Invasion of Iraq as 'Unpatriotic', but they are now openly hoping that "Obama Fails". If Obama fails, the Nation as a whole fails. And the World could follow. THAT is the very definition of UnPatriotic! Treasonous is probably a better desciption.
They claim to be Pro-Life, but at the same time most are Pro-Capital Punishment, Pro-War, and Pro-Torture. I can't find justification for that ANYWHERE in the Christian Bible.
The so-called 'Religious Right' apparently seeks a Christian Theocracy in this country. But Theocracies are exactly what we are fighting against in the Middle East. It's blatant Hypocrisy, and it has divided and endangered this country. I fear for us.
The whole World is watching, and they depend on us.

Hey PoliSci, JP, and Common Sense! I can't tell you how much I appreciate you trying to present the progressive point of view to the conservatives. But, I have read back through their blogs and they are not going to listen to anyone because they know everything! They hate anyone that disagrees with them, believe that war is inevitable and that peace and caring for others is nothing more than a sign of weakness. If Jesus Christ was to blog, they would bash him like you would not believe. Can you imagine what they would say if Jesus was making statements quoting the sermon on the mount? Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God, blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy, you have heard it said love thy neighbors and hate thy enemies, but I say love thy enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them that despitefully use you and persecute you, etc. etc. What a crazy lib he was? It is so sad when Christians are so full of hate they ignore Jesus!

To Mr & Mrs B.,

Bravo!! Finally....a voice of reason speaks!! You said it brilliantly!

To Mr & Mrs B.,

Bravo!! Finally....a voice of reason speaks!! You said it brilliantly!

For every person you waterboard how many new recruits do you think the radical element of Islam gets? It's torture, covered by a broad generalization of war in the Geneva Convention, much like our own Constitution is left broad for the very same reasons in regard to our laws. Also, Islam or Christianity, it doesn't matter, all forms of religion are based and "invented" out of Astrology. In fact many of the tenets are drawn upon from earlier forms of paganism and other religons, in particular the Egyptian pantheon. Last time I checked TOTB the KKK weren't burning stars of David on people's lawns or a crescent moon. I am glad that, as a nation, we have made rapid advancements away from such ignorance and intolerance over the course of only 30 years. Edmund Burke, the founder of modern conservatism says you understand the age you're living in and you respect reality. You all should be for 'conserving' the environment, be against launching pre-emptive wars, against the wild swings of laissez-faire economics, reckless speculation, for clean energy, or as Patrick McHenry(R) economist from N.C. says, "The people's desires have changed, but we're still stuck in our old issue set".

Every thing can be talked out & settled.

Perhaps in a home setting. (sometimes)

Rather unrealist expectations w/people

who see respect as weakness.

(and did someone say carry a big stick)

still lookin' for the stick.

Too busy using the printer.







people who believe upon death there will

be 13 virgins for them.

Pretty great plan to get young men in

thier army.

We "give peace a chance" between every single war, and there always ends up being another war.... someone's not playing the peace game with us!

It took the twin towers falling and thousands of non-military citizens dead in NY to bring us to this war, it wasn't a flippant decision, both sides of congress voted for it!

I'm ALL for peace, LOVE, a global village, it would be groovy!!! But it CAN NOT, WILL NOT, and NEVER HAS worked! It's a pipe-dream friends! Human nature flat-out prevents it. Give it up.... the hippies did!

onlyoneopinion; I agree with you on abortion. Ending a pregnancy to save a womans life, the procedure is NOT done with the intention to kill the baby (unlike abortion), but to save mom's life. The baby unfortunately dies. That is how it is viewed in the medical field. Lose two patients, or lose one. Technically not an abortion. i.e. tubal pregnancy. Or even separating dieing conjoined twins, removing parasitic twin, etc.

Less than 1% of 1% of all abortions happen to save a life though, that is why this "right" is in serious need of common sense restrictions and regulation!

Ok,being a Christain,I believe abortion is WRONG.As an American,I feel that Waterboarding,too,is wrong.BUT I DO believe there are other alternatives to use in order to get the vital information our government needs.Torture is torture-we are all human beings.As American's we fight for our freedoms and we use the name of God to prevail.I see that not everyone believes in the same God as I do,and that's completely fine with me.So long as you believe in something.Even atheist believe in something as a higher power.We all stand up for what we believe in.That's what makes us,AMERICA,great!
I happen to be a mother of 3,and I do NOT believe in violence in any manner/form.I believe that all problems can be "talked" out.
I personally pray for the safety of our soldiers&those who go over seas to rebuilt,ect.I truly hope that EVERYONE comes HOME SAFE & SOUND.After seeing family members fight in Korea,Nam,WW11,I don't agree w/war.As a parent-we teach our children 2 wrongs don't make a right.I think the men in charge of the world should remember what our parents told us.
Maybe I got off of subject,but I'm fed up w/war!Remember the 60's-give peace a chance!
Make Love NOT War!

PoliSci - At one time abortion was illegal and torture to protect our country was legal. Does that mean that back in those days torture was O.K. and abortion was wrong? Just because something is legal, does not mean it is right, and just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is wrong . Prayer in public, saying the Pledge of Allegiances, and spitting on the sidewalk in St. Louis is all illegal (in some instances), but not wrong.

God Bless and Semper FI.

Abortion is NOT so simple people.

Who gets to play GOD if the mothers life

is at stake if baby lives.

Doctor, husband, mother or leave in Gods hands?

Or is it a given baby can't be aborted so Mother dies?

Of course aborting cuz u prefer not having a baby is > W R O N G <

Now thats an absolute!

Back to the gray, black areas.

Many things & decisions are not absolutes in this ole world.

J.P. - I can sit here all day and dig up quotes in a childish attempt to insult someone. This just proves you have no original thought of your own. Just because you can find these on your mom's computer does not mean you understand them or can even fathom the depths of your ignorance in doing so.

It would be nice to have a real discussion that is not based on political talking points but based on what you would do. How about this...

A man is apprehended and it is found that he has hired an assassin to kill your entire family but will not tell who it is or where it is to happen but it will happen WITHIN 24 hours. He wants to see his lawyer. It is your choice on how to proceed but there is not enough time to go into hiding. Just what would J.P. do...???

PoliSci - what about all of the people who didn't practice religion that still cut heads off, hung blacks, and all the other horrible things you have stated...

You really think all the KKK members were stand up members in their church? I doubt it..

Some idiot might write a mantra based upon their vague interpretation of religion, but usually that's as far as it goes...


And, one must remember also that in the end, you are faithful to your God above all else...

Killing in them name isn't right, but some claim it.. in the end, they will be judged based upon their actions..


And, I'll say it again.. if waterboarding/torture saves one life, it's worth it. We do have the right to defend ourselves. We do have the right to protect the women, children, and those unable to protect themselves...

This is soooo simple people - abortion is torture - please speak with women who made the mistake of having it done...

Second - if waterboarding saves one American life, I'll gladly hold the hose.


You want to defend the rights of some coward that plans to hide his weapons until they go off, killing innocent men, women, and children??? You are just as sick as they are.


I firmly believe the only reason we haven't been attacked again on our soil is we took the fight to Iraq/Pakistan/Afghanistan... where our soldiers, men and women that signed up to fight, are the targets.. thus protecting us here at home. End that war, watch something else get blown up here.

ball game: one team plays fair. Other team uses every trick in the book.

Where does that leave the "play fair" team? Losing life & limb but by golly we played fair. whoop de do

Gen.convention my foot!

Its how whatever adm. happens to be in power: is "how they define torture."

ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE.

Abortion: too many varibles
what if, what if & what if!

mother or child...then play God and make that decision? Or just kill the mother. I see.

Too much black & white & gray areas.

Sorry /<

To quiteright and BassSlayer:

A stupid man’s report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconciously translates what he hears into something he can understand.
- Bertrand Russell
--------------------------------
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
- Martin Luther King Jr

PoliSci - Nowhere does it say waterboarding is tortue. On top of this, the Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorists or enemy combatants. In the past these types were executed on the battlefield. Just because somebody in the UN declares it is torture does not make it so. I notice that the same UN is pretty silent on the transgressions of Al Queda and they actively undermine the US at every chance.

You also equate Christianity with Islam. You are so far off-base with this comparison it borders on juvenile. The only commonalities with these two religions is a link with Abraham. From there on, it would appear that Islam was 'invented' to counter Christianity. Surely you know that Christianity is a few centuries older than Islam.

I know a lot of Pro-Life Democrats... Myself, I'm Pro-Death Penalty and Pro-Choice so there is no mold for one party or another. I just realize rape, murder, incest, and heinous crimes occur and there have to measures to appropriately deal with it. Islam or Christianity are all one in the same, they can be distorted into fanaticism and represent everything that is wrong with organized religion. They cut the heads from infidels, we've hung blacks because of color, and perpetrate hate crimes because someone is gay. The ignorance within religion go hand in hand with immorality...

There still are westernized thoughts permeating Iran but it's not nearly as progressive of a movement since the unjust invasion of Iraq. Also, here's a quote from the Geneva Convention since you apparently can't comprehend that waterboarding is a form of torture. "1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons: (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) Taking of hostages; (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.". The U.N. unanimously says it's cruel treatment or torture so there is no way to justify it, except maybe to yourself. It's been torture since the Spanish Inquisition.

JP...Prolife Democrat? Now that's a house divided. You give lip service to being prolife and then get on with the politics. You make my point for me.

J.P. - you really have taken the cake. You ask 'what would Jesus do?' were torture is concerned but fail to ask that same question concerning abortion? You may claim to be a Pro-Life Democrat but that does not absolve you of hypocracy since I am sure you voted for BHO who is a huge pro-death type of guy. That would lead me to believe that you are only pro-life when it is convienient to be so. You lack the curage of your convictions FOR POLITICS SAKE!

You keep spouting the mantra that the Republican Party is DOA. You are in for a rude awakening. Those sorry skin-bags running the dem party are sure something to be proud of. They are all liars and all corrupt. Beside that, you should hope that it is not dead since a one-party political system would mean our Republic is dead.

How old are you anyway? My advice to you is to get out of your moms basement, loose the tin-foil hat and join the grown-ups.

PoliSci - You have no proof those things are not still happening with the younger generation in Iran. You also keep claiming the Waterboarding is defined as torture in the Geneva Convention. You are wrong. Libs make a much broader definition of what torture is so that it will apply to waterboarding. Nowhere in the Geneva Convention does it say that waterboarding is torture as it was carried out by the US. You are also wrong about what young military members are taught and why most military personnel are conservative. Contrary to your predetermined disposition, most of the military are highly intelligent. They are capable of obsevation and they see ,hear and read what liberals, like yourself, have to say. They see that Clinton gutted the military before Republicans took control of congress. They hear that slob Ried declare the war lost and another slob Murtha indict thier fellows for murder without a trial. Examples just like this are everywhere. Armchair Generals, like youself, have no clue what a fine military we have,made up of outstanding men and women.

Semper Fi

CommonSence - Young Marines invloved in a fight handle stress in differnet ways. Taking a snipit of video that is out of context and projecting that to the military as a whole is what libs do all the time. Concerning Christians, yes, we all believe there is only one way. But here is a BIG difference, Christians will not tax you for not being Christian and they sure would not kill you for your lack of belief. They would only pray for you. Islam, on the other hand, will tax you at the very least and violently kill you at worst for not being a muslim. Now, we Christians have to bare the critisism and the marginalization of the liberals while they demand tolerance and acceptance of muslims. There is something much deeper in play here. I will go ahead and say it since I have not read here were anyone else has. Although I am not a practicing church-goer, in the bible there is a passage that clearly states that in the last days, Christians will be persecuted...

ITo quiteright&conservativeking:

I happen to be a Pro-Life Democrat. So you are probably quitewrong in your assumptions about me. And thank GOD you and the likes of you are now in a small minority....and fading fast. But not nearly quick enough.

"Abortion is a personal opinion"?!?!?

The slow deliberate dismemberment of living, feeling, pre-born human beings, babies, is matter of opinion, but putting a bug on an enemy threatening our lives is just too wrong?!?!?!

What is wrong with you people? These people want to KILL us. Tying our hands behind our back and smiling isn't going to change that. You are too naive to think that they will stop decapitating anyone who's not Islamic and putting the videos on the news, just because we promise not to get them wet anymore!

And "apples and oranges" has nothing to do with this. Put yourself through an abortion, and then let us know if you felt like it was torture! Drown in salt water, your flesh and lungs burning with it and let us know how it felt. Let's stab some scissors into your head and suck out your brains, and let us know. Or we can go the early abortion route and just rip you limb from limb... you know, cause it's not torture or anything... it's just opinion!

Ya'll need to wake up. Especially PoliSci. NK has twice already launched missles in our direction!

JP...Your posts here and on other threads indicate your lack of appreciation for what is happening. This is not a battle between political parties. Its much more important than that. You ask who would Jesus torture? Would Jesus torture and kill the most inocent of all human life?
Your outrage is selective, likely more about politics than anything else.

JP:

You are quite the little diva, aren't you? Your post sounds a whole lot like something celebutards like Sean Penn, Susan Sarandon, and Barbara Streisand would say..

To Mr. Downey,BassSlayer,quiteright, and the like.
If I may borrow a quote from your hero W. Bush. "Bring It On!!" This type of insane hypocrisy is exactly what has doomed the Republican Party. So...Keep On Bringing It On!!
The approval rating for your 'near-extinct' Repugnant Party is down to 20%, and you have nobody to blame but yourselves. Personally, I thank you from the bottom of my heart!! You are the BEST thing that has happened to the Democratic Party.....BRING IT ON!!
And please please make sure Rush Limbaugh remains your spokesperson! Now there is a dandy piece of moral stategy!!
Mr. Downey, first of all, the Obama
Admin. did NOT conclude waterboarding was torture....it has ALWAYS been torture. I will simply ask you this....W.W.J.D.? Would Jesus torture?....I think not!! He was very familiar with was it was....but he wouldn't condone it. It's simply another case of deparate people saying and doing desparate things. And it is shameless hypocrisy. This was your most ridiculous letter to date....and THAT my friend, wasn't an easy task.

There are a couple of books out there that all of you should read:

The Kite Runner - Hosseini

The Complete Persepolis - Satrapi

This should be required reading for every American. Before we invade another country in the Middle East and kill the people who are living there, we should be required to at least know who it is we are killing.

These two books will help us learn about people from the Middle East.

After you read the book and put a human face on those living in Afghanistan and Iran, see if you are still as eager to endorse killing them. See if you are as eager to endorse "enhanced interrogation techniques."

I'm not bashing the military personnel, they often do a thankless job. I'm talking about the bureaucrats and ranking officers that spread the 'Democrats are going to cut your pay' propaganda. I'd rather you give a plane ticket to all those men and women in Iraq, so they can come home because we've no business being there. All of this ignorance has happened but for no other reason than idiotic religious beliefs. If Iraq had invaded this country to despose a tyrannical President, George Bush, we would've done far worse than decapitations in return. That's why it's always better to think before you jump into the fire, but in Bush's case thinking was never his strong suit.

PoliSci:

Congratulations on bashing the military. It takes a real political genius to do that.

If I thought you would actually use it, I would personally pay for a plane ticket to send you and "Common Sense" to Afghanistan or Iraq. You could be the ambassadors for the Democratic Party.

Perhaps you could convince them that we can all be friends and just get along. If they happen to tie you up and pull out knives, don't worry. It's all good fun. After all, since we no longer waterboard, I'm sure they will no longer decapitate.

Common Sense:

Do you honestly believe that if we stop waterboarding the enemy, they will in turn stop decapitating our people and sending us the video?

It's a fact that before the Iraq war the younger generations in Iran were smuggling in Western culture(music, books, magazines) and were becoming more politically westernized. Waterboarding has been torture since the Spanish Inquisition, there's no doubting it, and it's banned in the Geneva Convention. End of that argument. North Korea has largely been cut off by the rest of the world and should they ever raise their hands in defiance it would be the Japanese, along with American allies, that would squelch their dissent. Trying to explain politics to many who've been brainwashed in the military is pointless Common Sense. They've been told since recruitment that Democrats are going to cut their pay, equipment, benefits, and their commanding officers have battered it into their heads for years. I've had nearly a dozen members of my family in the military who could shed a lot of light on why many military folks are Republicans. They portray Dem's as pacifists when they're trying to raise 'Killers!'... Abortion is legal, always will be, and torture is illegal, always will be. That sums it up whether you like it or not, and if you don't grab an airline ticket.

Mixing apples & oranges w/the torture & abortion is redunant.

If I could save your life by water boarding you bet I would. Some G I (s) were water boarded to see what it was like, so they would know how long to do it w/o killing the #$%^(s)

Ya think Ill. will take the prisoners.
Don't think so. ho ho

The people that hate us do not have a problem blowing us up. Guess thats not considered torture. excuse me

Abortion is a pesonal opinion.
We all have our own ideas bout that w/o someone crammning their veiws on us as an absolute.

I just happen to differ bout the water boarding.

Torture to me is what happened to our GI(s) w/driving sharp nails under nails.

Sticking our chopped off heads on posts.
hummmm now thats torture, my friends.

Where was the indignation for our GI(s)

Pt taken

RUkiddingme? I agree that the comparison is far reaching, but your statistics on when partial birth abortion is used is skewed too. It has been used innumeral times when there was no danger to the mother. I think they both are very wrong. Although, I must admit many years ago, when I was an Air Assault Scout in the Army and stationed in Korea, we had the slogan "Kill them all and let God sort them out!" So my military mindset was quite different than my current mindset. Also I am torn between what I think is right and wrong and letting the military braintrust decide what is right and wrong for war and terrorism.

quiteright, thank you, I just wanted to know more about RUkiddingme's philosophy before I made a comment. RUkiddingme started out with an issue but then when off on a tirade and I wasn't sure if I agreed or disagreed because I kinda of think focus on the issue got lost somewhere in the tirade.

For BassSlayer: I should have been more specific - "our (the West)" meant the U.S., U.K., and France. They split up the spoils of war in the middle east which lead to a lot of the hatred from "the West."

Yes, politician do influence our soldiers with their remarks - however, it goes both ways. There was a attitude relayed down from the top at the Pentagon to our troops that led to problems. I remember watching a video of a Marine shooting a Iraq soldier and laughing....and there were other incidents. Not funny.

In Iran, for example, there were regular pro-west demonstrations, moderates were in control, strict islam laws were not inforced. There were signs of improvement. Iran will probably never be a "friend" but I believe we can establish a functioning relationship. Just as we can with other countries in the Middle East.

We could have a very interesting discussion about religion - you listen to many Christians and they believe their religion is the only one in the world and they would be more than happy to have everyone subject to its beliefs!!

gman. The fact that I do know him is the reason I can't and won't go any further. I really believe that he needs counseling when his response to water boarding people somehow leads to a description of partial birth abortion that is hardly ever used except in cases where the abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. If you don't find that weird, maybe it's just me!

CommonSence - As a former Marine, I am well aware of how our military personnel are expected to act. I also am well aware of the impact politicians, their decisions, poblic statements and platitudes have on attitude and moral.

You actually believe things were improving and quiet in the Middle East and North Korea? Seriously? You also think that the US started this by meddling in Mid-East affairs after WWI?

I will give you props for one thing, this is a war of ideology. They believe that Islam is supreme and should rule the world and subject all to their beliefs, we beleive in the rights and freedom of all. There is no grey area, no abiguity and no quarter. Pick a side already.

Semper Fi

quiteright: Because there is a lot that can be blamed on Bush. Bush and his administration have contributed to much of the problems in the world, especially in the Middle East.

Their actions have not helped. I don't blame everything on Bush, but there is a lot that can!

Again, our going into Iraq has been the biggest recruiting boon to the terrorist groups that dislike us.

Bush and all his chickenhawks did a lot of damage......

Common Sense...AS IF any terrorist group needed a recruiting poster. You people amaze me at how you divert every conversation to an indictment of George Bush. Ignore history ignore reality just blame Bush no matter what. I bet you think he sunk the Titanic and started the Chicago fire as well. TOTALLY IRRATIONAL!

For quiteright: We turned Iraq into the recruiting poster for al Queda and other terrorist groups.

Actually, things had been improving in the Middle East - but Bush fixed that.

Pro-American rallies in Iran were common and not stopped and moderates were in power, Korea was quiet, Lebanon was calm and progress being made, and we had Iraq contained (they were not a threat to anyone).

However, statements and actions by the Bush administration changed much of that!!

And don't forget - who started this all anyway - our (the West) meddling at the end of WWI. It did not work then and it won't work now...

BassSlayer: Our enemies should know that we will do whatever it takes to defeat them - proved that in WWII.

Israel - they will be figthing forever if they don't find a way to stop the endless cycle of retaliation which has been going on since the early '50. Who started it - who knows. And many Americans, not just Dems and liberals, believe some of the Israeli's reactions are disproportionate.

Our enemies who torture and mutilate should be found and killed or tried and sentenced for their crimes - as we did at the Nuremburg trails.

If OBL was in the sights of one of our snipers - bang, he's dead. However, captured soldiers and citizens fighting our soldiers in Iraq should not be tortured or humiliated. They believe they are protecting their country.

If our country were invaded and we resort to guerrilla or insurgency warfare - I would be out there setting roadside bombs, doing raids, etc.

As a retired or former Marine -- YOU know how a professional soldier should act!!

Waging war against a government versus a ideology are two way different things.

common sense....How do you come to the conclusion that these 3 are ok with our troops being tortured? There is no logic to your statement. The "dangerous environment" you refer to is not our making it has been a dangerous environment for decades. Waterboarding is nothing compared to what they have done and are willing to do. If you think they held back until we started waterboarding you have no common sense.

CommonSence - War is H%$L. Our enemies need to not only fear us, they need to know that we will do whatever is required to defeat them. Liberals and Dems raised quite the ruccus over Isreals disproportionate response to the constant racket attacks, kidnappings and suicide bombings of its civilians. These clowns pushed for a more proportionate response.

Our enemies in the Middle East, no matter what country we are talking about, not only torture, but mutilate and behead our military personnel and civilians. This is a fact that you can see for yourself on the net. What, in your opinion, would be a proportional response to this?

I am not saying that we should cut thier heads off but waterboarding seems awfull mild. A slap upside the head or being subjected to the little furry catapillar seems absolutely horrifying.

If you want to make war less common, it must be absolute war. Handling our enemies with kid-gloves just emboldens them. Giving them constitutional rights is insane and gives them another battlefield in which to wage war.

Learn some common sence and live up to your name...

So, BassSlayer, Mr. Downey, gman -- you don't have a problem with our troops being tortured??

Whether it is Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country we may become involved in a war or conflict with -- it would be OK for them to torture our troops because we allow ours to do so??!!

We have cultivated a very dangerous environment in the Middle East with our actions, especially in Iraq. We have made the situation much worse because the previous administration lost sight of what it needed to do and that was get the people who attacked us and they are in Afghanistan and Pakistan NOT Iraq.

I DO NOT BY ANY MEANS condone the actions of individuals who have tortured and executed our soldiers - but we as Americans do not need to stoop to their level. It makes us no better than them.

As a professional soldier, we need our military (and others) to remain professional.

Torture and abortion - apples and oranges.

RUkiddingme; You got my attention, but please go into more detail about why Mr. Downey needs counseling. You sound like you have some specific issues with him so tells us these issues so we can agree or disagree with you.

Mr. Downey. You really need counseling! There is something seriously wrong with you and I pray that you turn to the Lord that you say is your God and ask for forgiveness and guidance. I don't know what religion you claim but the Koolaid that you are drinking has been seriously spiked!

Mr. Downey, I couldn't have said it any better. The hypocracy and double-standard surrounding both of these issues are disturbing, at best.

For those that support abortion but abhore waterboarding, every one of you need to get a grip, do some soul-searching and take a principled stand. How can someone support abortion but oppose the death penalty? (for the record, being against abortion but pro-death penalty, is not the same thing) How can someone support abortion but be against waterboarding an enemy?

These people have such a convoluted view of what is right and wrong.

Mr. Downey, you may have opened up a can with this one. It ought to make for some very interesting comments though.

Semper Fi